Manual or Auto - Page 47 - 2004 to 2016 Mazda 3 Forum and Mazdaspeed 3 Forums
View Poll Results: Manual or Automatic
Manual 645 64.24%
Automatic 359 35.76%
Voters: 1004. You may not vote on this poll

User Tag List

 66Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #461 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-18-2017, 08:00 AM
Seggle02
Member
Points: 1,058, Level: 17
Points: 1,058, Level: 17 Points: 1,058, Level: 17 Points: 1,058, Level: 17
Activity: 13%
Activity: 13% Activity: 13% Activity: 13%
 
Seggle02's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Orange, NSW, Australia
Posts: 62
Thanks: 1
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
 
Advocating manuals because of 'enhanced driver involvement' follows a similar logic to not using a remote control on the TV because of 'enhanced viewer involvement'.

Write a university assignment on a laptop? Bugger that. I want to type it on typewriter. I want to change the ribbon, use white-out and everything! Really get that 70s student experience happening....

(THE ABOVE IS TONGUE IN CHEEK WITH MANY LOLZ)
Seggle02 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #462 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-18-2017, 11:15 PM
WheelMcCoy
Senior Member
Points: 4,068, Level: 40
Points: 4,068, Level: 40 Points: 4,068, Level: 40 Points: 4,068, Level: 40
Activity: 5%
Activity: 5% Activity: 5% Activity: 5%
 
WheelMcCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 133
Thanks: 45
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
If you are looking for a good car to practice a manual transmission on, the Mazda 3 kind of fits the bill. Honestly, I would just go with a used car (or someone else's car) to burn the clutch on

...

And then there is the engine. No transmission exists in a vacuum- since it has to hook up to an engine, and the engine's characteristics make a big difference to the overall transmission experience. In this respect, the Skyactiv engine is more economy car than sports car, and because of its low RPMs it kind of encourages driving at a relaxed pace despite the excellent chassis. This engine character is actually made more acute when you use the manual transmission. That is to say, not really powerful and not really sporty. The 2.0/2.5 Skyactiv is NOT a Honda K20Z3 engine/transmission combo.

So in conclusion- the Mazda 3 is a perfect car to learn how to drive stick on, being extremely easy to use. But, it's debatable whether it's actually a more engaging experience, because the powertrain is a bit of a snoozer in stock form.
Yes, the Mazda3 is an ideal car to learn stick. It offers great feedback and is forgiving of mistakes. Actually, the engines do like to be rev'd, and pair nicely with the stick (see attached torque curves). The Mazda3 is not a sports car, but it's not a snoozer either... I'd say it feels sporty. The old MZR engine also has a nice exhaust note.

I know, Honda K-series engines don't sing until after 5000 rpm, but it's not a fair comparison. Those engines produce 200+ hp and power the RSX, Civic Si, and the TSX to name a few. BTW, I have a 2010 Mazda3 manual and a 2012 TSX Wagon (automatic only). Stay on the paddles, and the TSX is indeed fun. But the Mazda3 with a stick is even more fun.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SkyActv Torque Curve.png
Views:	45
Size:	121.3 KB
ID:	197201  
Road Trip likes this.
WheelMcCoy is offline  
post #463 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-18-2017, 11:58 PM
arathol
Senior Member
Points: 3,306, Level: 35
Points: 3,306, Level: 35 Points: 3,306, Level: 35 Points: 3,306, Level: 35
Activity: 99%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
arathol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: central ct
Posts: 1,019
Thanks: 0
Thanked 128 Times in 110 Posts
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ducky View Post
In this respect, the Skyactiv engine is more economy car than sports car, and because of its low RPMs it kind of encourages driving at a relaxed pace despite the excellent chassis. This engine character is actually made more acute when you use the manual transmission. That is to say, not really powerful and not really sporty. The 2.0/2.5 Skyactiv is NOT a Honda K20Z3 engine/transmission combo.

So in conclusion- the Mazda 3 is a perfect car to learn how to drive stick on, being extremely easy to use. But, it's debatable whether it's actually a more engaging experience, because the powertrain is a bit of a snoozer in stock form.
Ummmm.....NOT.
If you think the Skyactiv is a low rpm only snoozer motor either you aren't driving it right or your car is broken.....
As for the shifter, the one in my car is just fine, and made even better with a short throw plate installed. This is in comparison with one of the best shifters ever put in any car, the 5 speed in the NA Miata.
arathol is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #464 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 02:37 AM
SirDuckferd
Member
Points: 238, Level: 4
Points: 238, Level: 4 Points: 238, Level: 4 Points: 238, Level: 4
Activity: 85%
Activity: 85% Activity: 85% Activity: 85%
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 42
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
 
Hey guys, first, I don't know what happened but apparently I posted under my "ducky" account. I pretty much abandoned it because it kept saying that a moderator needed to approve my posts (which never show up). Not sure why it did this time??

As far as the discussion goes, the torque curve kind of shows opposite of what you guys are suggesting, since it starts falling off at 4000 RPM (and off a cliff at 5500 RPM). I suppose if you're comparing to a diesel, a 6500 rpm redline can be considered quite sporty for an inline 4. And yeah, I'm sure if you resort to modifications, the car can be made to feel better, but I'm comparing stock for stock. Maybe you guys are talking about the comparatively higher revving Skyactiv 1.5 engine?

The thing with the Honda K-engines are that even though they don't "sing" until after 5000 rpm (after intake cam phasing really starts kicking in and with VTEC crossing threshold), they still offer comparable torque to the Skyactiv engines at the lowest RPMs. I guess what I'd really like is a K-engine in a Mazda 3 chassis. The current North American Civic does offer a 6 speed/2-litre naturally aspirated combo in base models, but I don't like the way the new Civic hatchback looks.

As a further basis of comparison, I'm not a huge fan of the engine in the Toyobaru FR-S, but despite its problems it's still a more engaging engine/transmission combo (if lacking in the NVH department).

I know these Skyactiv engines are pretty advanced, with DI/dual phasing/4-2-1 exhaust and generally thoughtful application of weight savings and design optimization, but the overall effect isn't overwhelming impressive if you're after a sporty engine. They are extremely good daily driver engines being relatively quiet and smooth, but I'd be lying if I told someone that they are sporty.
SirDuckferd is offline  
post #465 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 10:03 AM
WheelMcCoy
Senior Member
Points: 4,068, Level: 40
Points: 4,068, Level: 40 Points: 4,068, Level: 40 Points: 4,068, Level: 40
Activity: 5%
Activity: 5% Activity: 5% Activity: 5%
 
WheelMcCoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 133
Thanks: 45
Thanked 18 Times in 18 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDuckferd View Post

...

As a further basis of comparison, I'm not a huge fan of the engine in the Toyobaru FR-S, but despite its problems it's still a more engaging engine/transmission combo (if lacking in the NVH department).

I know these Skyactiv engines are pretty advanced, with DI/dual phasing/4-2-1 exhaust and generally thoughtful application of weight savings and design optimization, but the overall effect isn't overwhelming impressive if you're after a sporty engine. They are extremely good daily driver engines being relatively quiet and smooth, but I'd be lying if I told someone that they are sporty.
I'm gradually getting a sense that you're not a fan of finesse. Mazda doesn't rev as high, but its torque band is fatter compared to a 2.0L Honda NA engine (2.4L is a different story). This helps with daily drivability and doesn't take away from the fun. Note that BMW covers the best of both worlds with a really fat torque band; strong power comes on low at 2k rpm and continues all the way to redline.

Check this link to see Consumer Reports review the 2010 Mazda3 on a test track:

Within the first minute, you'll see him do a power slide and describe the Mazda3 as "really neutral, really fun to drive, like a good sports car."

And the Mazda3 got better and better with each generation thereafter.

As for the shifter, they are among the best in the business, Certainly better than the one in the FR-S / BRZ, but arguably not better than the Honda S2000. But the shifter in the S2000 should really be compared to the one in the MX-5.

Last edited by WheelMcCoy; 02-19-2017 at 10:32 AM.
WheelMcCoy is offline  
post #466 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 01:29 PM
Road Trip
Gearhead
Points: 5,484, Level: 47
Points: 5,484, Level: 47 Points: 5,484, Level: 47 Points: 5,484, Level: 47
Activity: 100%
Activity: 100% Activity: 100% Activity: 100%
 
Road Trip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 1,132
Thanks: 61
Thanked 100 Times in 87 Posts
Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
     
Garage
Very useful series of posts above @WheelMcCoy , @SirDuckferd and @arathol !

Thank you very much @WheelMcCoy for the torque curve for both Mazda 3 motors! It clearly shows that for the 2.5L if you are looking for torque/acceleration 3,500 to 4,750 RPM's are your friend and for the 2.0L if again wanting TQ, 3,500 to 5,500 RPM's is your best place. Since going higher RPM's than the above amounts, gives us less power and less fuel mileage, the only reason to be above 4,750 and 5,500 RPM respectively for the two motors, is when we want louder exhaust music.

And thank you @arathol for your info on comparative shifting. Would you please tell us which "short throw plate" you installed?

2017 Mazda 3 GT hatch: Soul Red Metallic with Black interior, manual: Premium Equipment pkg, customized OEM Appearance Pkg; iActivSense Pkg, add'l OEM options.

Build Thread:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by Road Trip; 02-19-2017 at 01:36 PM.
Road Trip is offline  
post #467 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 01:30 PM
arathol
Senior Member
Points: 3,306, Level: 35
Points: 3,306, Level: 35 Points: 3,306, Level: 35 Points: 3,306, Level: 35
Activity: 99%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
arathol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: central ct
Posts: 1,019
Thanks: 0
Thanked 128 Times in 110 Posts
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
     
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDuckferd View Post
Hey guys, first, I don't know what happened but apparently I posted under my "ducky" account. I pretty much abandoned it because it kept saying that a moderator needed to approve my posts (which never show up). Not sure why it did this time??
You are not really allowed to have two accounts. Thats why you got that response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDuckferd View Post
As far as the discussion goes, the torque curve kind of shows opposite of what you guys are suggesting, since it starts falling off at 4000 RPM (and off a cliff at 5500 RPM). I suppose if you're comparing to a diesel, a 6500 rpm redline can be considered quite sporty for an inline 4. And yeah, I'm sure if you resort to modifications, the car can be made to feel better, but I'm comparing stock for stock. Maybe you guys are talking about the comparatively higher revving Skyactiv 1.5 engine?
The thing with the Honda K-engines are that even though they don't "sing" until after 5000 rpm (after intake cam phasing really starts kicking in and with VTEC crossing threshold), they still offer comparable torque to the Skyactiv engines at the lowest RPMs. I guess what I'd really like is a K-engine in a Mazda 3 chassis. The current North American Civic does offer a 6 speed/2-litre naturally aspirated combo in base models, but I don't like the way the new Civic hatchback looks.
Really?? The 2.0 SkyActive makes 150 ft/lbs@4000 rpm, and the 2.5 makes 184@3250. Your much touted Honda motor only makes 139 ft/lbs, and that doesn't happen until 6200 rpm. That is why Hondas are known as torqueless wonders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirDuckferd View Post


As a further basis of comparison, I'm not a huge fan of the engine in the Toyobaru FR-S, but despite its problems it's still a more engaging engine/transmission combo (if lacking in the NVH department).

I know these Skyactiv engines are pretty advanced, with DI/dual phasing/4-2-1 exhaust and generally thoughtful application of weight savings and design optimization, but the overall effect isn't overwhelming impressive if you're after a sporty engine. They are extremely good daily driver engines being relatively quiet and smooth, but I'd be lying if I told someone that they are sporty.
Ask any MX5 ND owner about that.

Now that that is done, here is a reality check for you
If all you came here to do is troll and bash Mazdas, you can go back to your Honda forums and do it.
arathol is offline  
post #468 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 01:34 PM
arathol
Senior Member
Points: 3,306, Level: 35
Points: 3,306, Level: 35 Points: 3,306, Level: 35 Points: 3,306, Level: 35
Activity: 99%
Activity: 99% Activity: 99% Activity: 99%
 
arathol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: central ct
Posts: 1,019
Thanks: 0
Thanked 128 Times in 110 Posts
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Trip View Post


And thank you @arathol for your info on comparative shifting. Would you please tell us which "shift plate" you installed?
I am using the JBR plate, and installed the solid cable bushings too. The shifter was pretty good before, the plate makes it that much better.
arathol is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to arathol For This Useful Post:
Road Trip (02-19-2017)
post #469 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 02:51 PM
SirDuckferd
Member
Points: 238, Level: 4
Points: 238, Level: 4 Points: 238, Level: 4 Points: 238, Level: 4
Activity: 85%
Activity: 85% Activity: 85% Activity: 85%
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 42
Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
 
I actually made the Ducky account first, but none of my posts ever got approved and I got sick and tired (needed help with installation of cruise control and some advice on AS-BUILT data) and made this SirDuckferd one. If mods see this, please delete the Ducky account, I have no idea why things turned out the way it did.

My OP wasn't even discussing the engine as being non-sporty (instead focusing on ease to drive for the manual), but apparently the few words I dedicated to that topic has tilted some of you and I apologize if I hurt your feelings. However, I stand by my opinions. I do not make them out of malice, but pure observation and experience having driven several cars over the years. And to be clear, I am speaking only of the Mazda 3, not the Miata (for which I have no experience of).

It's not that I'm not a fan. If I wasn't, I wouldn't have one (and I have a 2014 Titanium MT, or perhaps more accurately, my spouse does). The Mazda 3 is a good car, probably one of the best compacts on in the USDM, and one of the few choices if you want a hatchback. That doesn't mean putting on rose tinted glasses and putting the Mazda 3 on an angelic pedestal- every car has their pros and cons, the Mazda 3 just doesn't happen to have an overperforming powertrain. Not a big deal for daily drivers, it is extremely fuel efficient on regular gas and as I said, it's perfect for learning how to stick shift.

The Toyobaru shifter is notchy, but I really don't know how you can think it's worse than the one in the Mazda 3. It's a question of cable linkages in the 3 vs. direct action on top of the transmissionin the Toyobaru. There's really no comparison there.

And finally, I don't have to defend the Honda K-engine considering its legacy, but I will say that despite the on-paper differences, dyno plots tell a different story (including the fact that 90% of torque is available at 2500 rpm and is mostly sustained all the way to 8500 RPM). A cursory internet search reveals that. "Torqueless wonder" refers to the older style engines without intake variable cam phasing, which does really kill torque (plus they were sub 2-liter engines). You also can't deny the 40hp difference between the two engines.

Same story with the Toyobaru engine, and that one doesn't even have two-step valve lift system like Honda. I feel like the engine is too rough, there's a weird torque dip between 2500-3500 rpm and it really doesn't want to rev to its 7000ish redline; but it's significantly more powerful than the Mazda engine even though my butt-dyno questions whether it actually makes ~200hp. It's also worth mentioning that Honda has a 1.5L turbo available in the Civic now that meets modern emissions regulations (unlike the older K-engine), but again, I didn't like the way the hatchback looked and got a good deal on the Mazda 3.

Last edited by SirDuckferd; 02-19-2017 at 03:01 PM.
SirDuckferd is offline  
post #470 of 491 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 11:05 AM
BrianU
Member
Points: 2,975, Level: 33
Points: 2,975, Level: 33 Points: 2,975, Level: 33 Points: 2,975, Level: 33
Activity: 79%
Activity: 79% Activity: 79% Activity: 79%
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Spring, TX
Posts: 75
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
 
From a post I had on DriveAccord back in 3/5/2007

Over the years from 2004 – present, I’ve owned all the powertrain combinations of the 7th generation Honda Accord, 2003-2007. We still have my wife’s 2007 3.0L V6 automatic coupe with just 51,500 miles on the clock. As much I like that car as it will run the in 15.1 ET and is overall a wonderful daily driver, the 4 cylinder 2.4L K24 series with a 5-speed manual were by far the best combination in that car. I leased a 2004 and then purchased a 2007 EX-L sedan with that powertrain and would still have it if I had not been T-boned in fall of 2010.
My Mazda6 Touring manual powertrain feels close to the 2.4L K24 5-speed, but lacks in low-end torque. The manual shifter is “Honda like”, fuel mileage is better in the Mazda on the freeway by a couple of MPG, but is worse in low speed traffic. Overall, pretty close. The only area the Mazda6 destroys the 7th Generation Accord is in handling, ZOOM ZOOM!; it’s just not close even though I had changed the rear swaybar in my Accord from the 14mm to the TL 17mm to reduce under-steer. Of course the K24 Honda had to do with squishy 205/60-16s even if you ran the air pressure up to 38/40PSI; so the Accord just never had the “reflexes” the Mazda6 does.

I did take my 2.4L K24 5-speed manual to the drag strip and ran a best of 15.892 @ 86.30Mph in the mile out of six passes:
2.323 (60') 15.892 (ET) 86.30 (MPH) 3345Lbs - slip clutch @ 3000Rpm – almost perfect launch

The weight noted is race weight with me in the car and about 7 gallons of 87 octane pump gas. So this equates to a dry weight of about 3150Lbs for a 2004 EX-L manual sedan. I fueled up when I arrived home and still pulled down a 31.93Mpg average on that tank. Since Car & Driver pulled down a 16.1 for this car back in the fall of 2003, I’m pleased with my results.

I think the drive-train in a 2.4L K24 5-speed manual Accord was as close to perfect for the fuel mileage and performance as any mid-sized car manufactured family sedan. As a daily commuter and I drive in some heavy traffic, I loved that car.

As a side note, I replaced the T-boned Accord with a used 2007 3.0L V6 6-speed Accord! Fun to drive, yes! It was probably an easy low to middle 14 second car in the mile; Handling, not so much. Even with 215/50-17 ultra-high performance all-season tires and again replacing the stock 14mm rear swaybar with a 17mm TL bar it was way to nose heavy and simplify refused to be pushed hard around a corner!

2016 Touring manual Deep Crystal Blue Mica/Sand leatherette


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


35% 3M Ceramic film|OEM cargo tray, F&R splash guards|TPI C726445F Wheel Locks|Interior & BKup LEDs|iJDMTOY Fogs yellow Lamin-x & H9s Mazda stalk|H9 headlights
A119 dashcam w/GPS & Lexar microSDXC 633x 128GB|Polk Audio DB351s/100V 47uF caps in dash|DXI 651s rear doors|Kenwood KSC-SW11 subwoofer|Thermoquiet acoustic insulation

Last edited by BrianU; 02-21-2017 at 11:17 AM.
BrianU is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Tags
auto , manual

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the 2004 to 2016 Mazda 3 Forum and Mazdaspeed 3 Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome