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post #21 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-09-2013, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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The soft setting on the Tri-Point is supposed to be 750 lbs/in, compared to 644 lbs/in for the Corksport 24mm bar at the stiff setting. It's not like the car's flat-ground handling was completely transformed or anything, I just found (the hard way) that bumps and dips can't be taken flat-out with the new bar.

If I leave work at some reasonable time today I'll put the CS bar back in and post up the Tri-Point one.


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post #22 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-09-2013, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by color0 View Post
The soft setting on the Tri-Point is supposed to be 750 lbs/in, compared to 644 lbs/in for the Corksport 24mm bar at the stiff setting. It's not like the car's flat-ground handling was completely transformed or anything, I just found (the hard way) that bumps and dips can't be taken flat-out with the new bar.

If I leave work at some reasonable time today I'll put the CS bar back in and post up the Tri-Point one.
Yeah there's a point where a stiffer bar needs other suspension upgrades... I have noticed this as well haha. This is why a Racing Beat Front Sway Bar is on the way and moving the JBR bar to the stiffest.


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Last edited by Rherold9; 05-09-2013 at 01:40 PM.
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post #23 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-09-2013, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by color0 View Post
Gonna get this one out of the way before I forget everything tonight -- serious warning below.


The Tri-Point sway has extremely good build quality and bolted on in less than half an hour, as expected. The brackets line up with the inner edge of the swaybar "leaves" so that's why you don't need the retaining collars (learn something new every day!). I greased up the bushings nice and thin and everything seemed to be OK installation-wise. No creaks, squeaks or telltale rattles either.

Driving wise is a bit of a mixed bag. Keep in mind that everything I say after this sentence is heavily dependent on individual car setup and driver skill. I noticed immediately that the extra stiffness of the Tri-Point sway makes lift-off oversteer more accessible, and on smoother corners I had no problem modulating the rear end of the car mid-corner using just throttle inputs. Feels nice. However, what I also noticed was that the car became very sensitive to bumps: hit one the wrong way and the rear will snap oversteer instantly. I got no warning from the tires, the rear just let go on me, once going uphill in a tight right and once more going downhill in a medium left. Given that the car behaved consistently in smooth turns, I have no reason to suspect tweak or loose bolts. I'm thinking I just went too stiff.

The on-brakes behavior of this car now is also dangerous for me. With the Corksport 24mm bar, I had the fortune and luxury of being able to brake sideways, where I could hit the brake, and without changing the steering angle much, the car would slide while slowing down, and would not rotate more or less while doing so. This no longer seems to be the case with the Tri-Point bar installed. When sideways on the brakes it always feels like the car wants to rotate more, and eventually wants to point towards the cliff. I spun out twice in an hour tonight, because this over-rotation forces you to countersteer to get away from the wall, but then as you do so, the rear naturally comes back into line and fishtails you the other way. With the CS sway bar (and everything else identical) the car rotates slower, and I end up "only" facing the exit of the corner by the time I reach the apex and I can then floor the gas to exit the corner.

The Tri-Point bar does make the car rotate better in off- and partial-throttle situations mid-corner, and I suspect it would be faster on a racetrack where a car like mine would spend the better part of its life modulating the tires without needing the brakes. But in the mountains, I've lost the ability to slide on the brakes safely and I don't feel confident driving a car that wants to over-rotate all the time. I'll be faster if I can brake later and harder without sending the rear end out so fast. So it comes as a surprise to me for sure, but I don't think I can use this rear sway bar.

The Tri-Point RSB willl be up in the For Sale section tomorrow, with less than 5 hours of driven time in the car. If you have BC coilovers with 8k/6k spring rates, don't say I didn't warn you. The Tri-Point RSB could be too much for a canyon/tarmac rally application.
that sound like fun.....
i may look in to this more...

also never brake side ways, only straight, causes too much of an upset in tight suspensions setups. improv drift or spins can result.

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post #24 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-09-2013, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
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Unless you've tried comparing the two techniques yourself I'd ask you not to give "rules of thumb" like that. The canyon is not a racetrack, where the additional mid-corner speed can make up for the time you spend braking earlier. It really is most related to tarmac rally. You don't spend much time mid-corner, so you need to rotate early and brake late to minimize the time you spend slowed down post-braking. The effect of having to rotate and brake simultaneously means you must brake a little sideways, and be comfortable doing it. Otherwise you will lose time, every corner, to a driver who is executing it properly.

If your suspension is "tight" and you need to specially compromise one area of your driving to stay within its limits, then your setup sucks. Simple reasoning man, I'm going back to the CS bar because I was clearly faster on Sunday's setup than yesterday's.


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post #25 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-09-2013, 07:51 PM
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My question is how hard are you braking sideways and why? If you doing it too hard I can see why major oversteer is occurring and can easily make you spin... why wouldn't you just keep throttle on with a stiffer rear sway to keep the car balanced and brake hard before the turn slowing down enough? What's the need to brake sideways or mid-corner? I'm just confused on your driving tactics that is all.


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post #26 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-09-2013, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by color0 View Post
Unless you've tried comparing the two techniques yourself I'd ask you not to give "rules of thumb" like that. The canyon is not a racetrack, where the additional mid-corner speed can make up for the time you spend braking earlier. It really is most related to tarmac rally. You don't spend much time mid-corner, so you need to rotate early and brake late to minimize the time you spend slowed down post-braking. The effect of having to rotate and brake simultaneously means you must brake a little sideways, and be comfortable doing it. Otherwise you will lose time, every corner, to a driver who is executing it properly.

If your suspension is "tight" and you need to specially compromise one area of your driving to stay within its limits, then your setup sucks. Simple reasoning man, I'm going back to the CS bar because I was clearly faster on Sunday's setup than yesterday's.
I wasn't trying to be rude and what I offer was a bit of advice, not a "rule of thumb" but I degrees.

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post #27 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-10-2013, 12:20 AM
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Running that stiff of a bar on top of stiff springs is why it is feeling like it is. Reason why most people run a stiff bar is when they can't change their rear springs or don't want a rate that high for daily driving.

I run the tripoint on the stock springs for autox where I can't change my springs due to rules. With coilovers I would probably have to go down to either a weaker bar or lighter springs and changed dampening settings to account for lighter springs.

Not nearly the same car but I found similar results on my 300zx TT with coilovers at the 8/6k f/r and I switched back to stock sway bars. It felt nice to not have it roll in corners when it was clean. But most roads in chicago are heaved from ice or have potholes which lent to it making me feel uneasy about it.

I would question braking in the middle of the turn unless you are trying to trail brake which is mostly used to help the car rotate better which it seems isn't really the issue with the setup at this point.
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post #28 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-10-2013, 12:47 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rherold9 View Post
My question is how hard are you braking sideways and why? If you doing it too hard I can see why major oversteer is occurring and can easily make you spin... why wouldn't you just keep throttle on with a stiffer rear sway to keep the car balanced and brake hard before the turn slowing down enough? What's the need to brake sideways or mid-corner? I'm just confused on your driving tactics that is all.
I can assure you I'm not jamming the brakes to yank the car sideways lol. It's just trail braking, just enough so that the rear starts to rotate.

I'll have to draw more pictures to explain clearly, but let's say we have identical cars, but you have a stiffer rear sway. You do slow down before the corner, and I slow down as I turn in, but I do turn in earlier (traditional racing line vs. minimum-distance line).

Off the bat, we should agree that I instantly gain 1 car length on you via the corner entry, and you'll have to make up for all that distance mid-corner and exit. You do have more corner speed, and you have a better setup to power out of the corner with, but there are two problem conditions:

A) The Skyactiv engine has no power.
B) The front tires are already fully loaded mid-corner, so power will just cause understeer.

To catch up, you have to get around these two conditions, but that's where I gave up.

1) Even if your better balance allows you to apply power neutrally, the overloaded front AND rear tires will just wash out in a nice four-wheel-drift, which scrubs speed.
2) If you keep the fronts within their limits, you don't have an advantage because I'm doing that too. You have to somehow get more cornering grip out of the fronts, which requires a different setup.
3) There's no line advantage either because the Skyactiv has no power, and the way to go fast on exit is to minimize the distance you have to travel.

The end result is that you and I will have the same exit line, but you took a wider entry line, sacrificing entry speed for exit speed. You start closing the distance only after the corner exit. On a racetrack, where corners are flanked by straight-ish sectors, this makes perfect sense; the faster you catapult onto the straightaway the less you have to struggle with the car's mediocre power. But the canyon is one corner after the other, whatever exit speed you gained (remember, Skyactiv -- not a whole lot) will be scrubbed off within 1-2 seconds, and if you brake earlier than I do, the advantage will erase itself. Each time you give me another car length, that disadvantage will add up over the course of 15 miles.

I have of course tried to use different techniques to approach corners, and yes the Tri-Point sway forced me to finish braking before the turns to avoid turn-in instability. You can declare that I wasn't used to the way the car handled (true!), but mid-corner I wasn't able to extract any more corner speed from the car than before, exactly in line with points 1) and 2) above. I was barely able to run away from cars that I've lost sight of in three turns. I'd have to become a helluva driver to manage the rear better upon turn-in, and that's something I am not game enough to practice in the canyons, knowing the consequences (happened twice already).

Sin_loki this is where you come in, all of the above ^ is the reason why I can't accept your well-intentioned advice. I put my life on the line to do my own testing, and what meager, unscientific results I do get don't agree with a lot of traditional circuit technique.






The other, and irrefutable, reason why sideways braking stability is critical is because canyons are not a prepared course. You never know what you'll meet in the canyons. If you have to panic-brake and veer outwards to avoid a car, tree or rock, you do NOT want the car to start aiming inwards directly at it. As I've written about before, I've already slid past a Jeep once with the Skyactiv at opposite lock. If the car had over-rotated like it did yesterday, I would not be sitting here posting my thoughts today.






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Quote:
Originally Posted by Intel View Post
Running that stiff of a bar on top of stiff springs is why it is feeling like it is. Reason why most people run a stiff bar is when they can't change their rear springs or don't want a rate that high for daily driving.

I run the tripoint on the stock springs for autox where I can't change my springs due to rules. With coilovers I would probably have to go down to either a weaker bar or lighter springs and changed dampening settings to account for lighter springs.

Not nearly the same car but I found similar results on my 300zx TT with coilovers at the 8/6k f/r and I switched back to stock sway bars. It felt nice to not have it roll in corners when it was clean. But most roads in chicago are heaved from ice or have potholes which lent to it making me feel uneasy about it.

I would question braking in the middle of the turn unless you are trying to trail brake which is mostly used to help the car rotate better which it seems isn't really the issue with the setup at this point.
Mostly agree, and as of this moment the CS 24mm sway is back on the car. It has worked well. As you probably realized, I am trail braking a good bit. It has less to do with rotation and more with avoiding momentum loss too early, given that I can only muster so much speed via the engine before I enter a turn.


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post #29 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-10-2013, 11:33 AM
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Okay okay. That is helpful, just different driving techniques for different people, with different set-ups, and different situations. I can see why you would like that way because it can be different in certain situations because of the set-up.

But, the question I have is the set-up I'm going to have going to work still, Racing Beat front sway bar and JBR RSB on stiffest around 900 on the RSB and 600-700 on the FSB. I'm thinking this will be a good balance for me on FWD and I'll be installing coilovers soon as well. half inch gap (one finger) fender to tire will be around 5 inches off the ground. 9k front spring rate, 4.7k rear.


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post #30 of 692 (permalink) Old 05-10-2013, 06:32 PM Thread Starter
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Hm, I'm not sure about that setup. Typically 9k/5k would be considered imbalanced and you would pair a stock front sway with a large rear sway to attempt to balance out the steady-state characteristic. With your setup you would likely get progressive lift-off oversteer and a relatively insensitive on-throttle push, but it would push steady-state because that's a lot of front sway to be running on a non-turbo Mazda3. If you can get a softer front sway, say from the factory Speed3, that'd be my guess to balance things out.


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